Urban Review STL - Latest Comments

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

gmichaud — Tue, 21 May 2013 21:38:08 -0000

I'm not sure choosing a streetcar route without a viable city plan makes sense. The design opportunities in this area are endless. This can mean new public spaces that collect transit for instance.

I can remember when people though I was crazy moving to Soulard in the seventies. Things can and will change fast. Behind every conversation about urban planning and design is the specter of oil, climate change and all of the other elements that will make the suburbs the slums of tomorrow.

One final comment about McKee. I am guessing he will produce a plan with a few "highly visible" urban strategies that will distract from the underlying fact the plan will be suburban light and structurally auto centric.

To me it is clear at this point that the powers to be who make these decisions supposedly in the public interest either don't have a clue what they are doing or something more nefarious is going on.

The question I would ask is what would a viable city plan for the Northside look like? A plan that would include streetcars and many other urban design features that point towards success is certainly possible. (Where is that plan?, It is what Judge Dierker was asking)

It is not like this should be a big mystery, city after city does a better job of city design and planning than St. Louis.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

Fozzie — Tue, 21 May 2013 16:37:04 -0000

There are a helluva lot of vacant lofts downtown.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

TEG — Tue, 21 May 2013 12:20:03 -0000

Oh, I don't know....! I guess I'll just say that if you are blind to the obvious problems of both communities and if you aren't pestering City Hall every week about the flagrant violations of building codes that are common to both areas.....then I suppose you're "one of them" and that these obvious signs of decline meet with your level of expectation. It's just not good enough for me, because a significant number of residents obviously don't respect themselves or their neighbors (neighborhood) enough to pick up that old lamp that's been lying alongside the house over the entire winter, or replace a gutter that's hanging 45 degrees off the side of the roof fascia! I would like to think I am wrong. But leaving that neighborhood for my family AND ME was more than taking a favorite jacket off for the last time and throwing it in the trash. Frankly, especially for my parents, it was like removing a layer of skin! My parents sold out (as you suggest) 9 years ago and moved to Clayton. My mother no longer loves where she lives. She loved Southampton for the first 33 years she lived there. She says that now, though, she feels safe again. I have no agenda. Just a lot of concern about the neighborhood, both sides of Kingshighway.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

branwell1 — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:47:10 -0000

You ask what is different about the decline of north St. Louis decades ago (let's say basically beginning with the end of WW II) and the alleged decline of south St. Louis today. Well, as I would hope you agree, innumerable things about our nation at large are radically different from what they were 60-70 years ago. As far as this discussion goes, specifically, I submit that the concept of a successfully integrated neighborhood is one established today and alien to many cities in decades past. All of the things you write about south St. Louis, literally every single thing you state and imply, was directed at where I grew up in the CWE/Skinker-DeBaliviere/Delmar Loop neighborhoods during the 1960s and '70s. The St. Louis woods were full of "experts" and "smart money" types who never tired of forecasting how it would all be bulldozed into urban renewal oblivion eventually and that any idiot who considered living there deserved whatever fate came his foolhardy way. I, however, grew up around people who did not see giving up, abandoning, and fleeing as either wise or admirable. Despite the popular naysaying, shamefully corroborated by banks and slumlords, they chose to sustain and rejuvenate the area, believing there was much to recommend its continued prosperity and popularity. The result today proves that they were right and the naysayers were wrong.

And yes, I know, crime occurs there today, but the larger reality is that that expansive area is, day in and day out, an economically, racially, and ethnically integrated, prosperous and beautiful one with stunning residential architecture matching anything in the country, thriving institutions, world class cultural assets, and a bright future of spreading into adjoining city neighborhoods. All of this would not be the case if everyone had followed the "smart money"/"expert" voices who frantically proclaimed how doomed it all was 40 years ago. They were wrong then, and with all due respect, I think you are wrong now. That is beside my point, which is that neighborhoods are living entities; some are healthier than others, some are "better" than others in fundamental ways. What they have in common is the reality of being animated by dedicated people. Without that, yes, they will die. Some neighborhoods die. That does not mean that it is inevitable or that communities with challenges should not sustain and be sustained.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

guest — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:32:42 -0000

You do know that areas east of Southampton, on both sides of Grand, are doing quite well, with property values far in excess of the average in Southampton, and a diverse mix of people. How does your theory explain that?

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

backprop — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:20:40 -0000

What's ironic is that there WILL be an entrance to Wal-mart from Trianon. People in Kenrick Manor who were concerned about shoppers "cutting through" have solved nothing by closing Trianon. Customers will still be able to get through via the residential street. So they have a double whammy - they are still going to get their dreaded traffic to Wal-mart, and have lost access to Watson.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

backprop — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:16:59 -0000

Steve, the question of sidewalks from Watson was specifically asked at a board meeting by a resident:

http://www.cityofshrewsbury.co...

The question is on page 3, and response is on page 4 (the developers answered in batches)

It was noted that the plan did not show sidewalks, but it is now very clear and is a matter of public record that the developer has stated that sidewalks would be provided via Watson.

I have contacted all the aldermen and the mayor in Shrewsbury about the issue. I hope you press it as well.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

backprop — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:12:08 -0000

MacSTL, there are two answers to your point:

1) Shrewsbury FD and PD did test runs going via Watson (they would not go through Mackenzie Pointe as it does not connect to Kenrick) and did not have an increase in response time vs. going through Kenrick Manor
2) There is an entrance to Kenrick via the subdivision; it's not a "through" street but it does allow access.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

Scott Jones — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:57:34 -0000

Maybe if they really involved the local residents in the design we would have gotten something decent that the neighborhood residents wouldn't want to shut themselves off from?

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

TEG — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:28:55 -0000

What's scary on Chippewa? Boarded up windows, falling gutters and fascias, a front porch propped up with 4 x 4s, broken/cracked glass, crap stored along-side houses, overstuffed furniture on front porches, screen doors falling off hinges, aluminum foil on the windows, weeds growing up to the tops of porch rail parapets, to name a few items I noticed last week when I drove by.
"Families of Familiars" isn't code-speak. It's a condition that exists when 1 family signs the lease, then another family moves in to co-habitate. Combined, in one case, both families contribute 6 adults, 9 kids to the block, 4 cars and countless scooters, tricycles, plastic basketball goals, dolls, buggies left overnight all over the sidewalks, terrace, terraces of neighbors, in the street gutters,etc. I have a friend who still lives on the 5300 block of Chippewa, and she sees it first hand. When you live on the block, see what's going on, who's entering and exiting the houses, who's playing outside and on the porches during the day and early evenings, it doesn't take long to figure out what's going on in some of those houses.. The City investigates, but officials there are not allowed to enter the premises to do a thorough inspection--can't prove it, so they have to move on.

This isn't the Southampton of even 10 years ago. It's NSL in 1956, when similar conditions started to show up in that area. And MY POINT was that something has to be done about the decline in Southampton. Otherwise, whatever went wrong in NSL will likely also go wrong in SSL. All things being equal, IF IT HAPPENED IN NSL, WHY WOULD SSL NOT SUFFER A SIMILAR FATE? What has changed? Minimum building standards and occupancy codes are ON THE BOOKS at City Hall. Why aren't they being enforced? Do you think that somehow this corrosion will stop on its own? Slowly it will destroy SSL, just as it did in NSL.

I'm not "pedaling" anything. I grew up in the neighborhood, 8 or so blocks south. Many happy memories. After college, I moved on. My parents were forced out almost 9 years ago when our home was robbed when my mother was sleeping upstairs alone. Could have happened anywhere, I know. But it didn't happen "anywhere"; it happened 15 feet from my mother's bed! I'M SIMPLY TRYING TO BRING ATTENTION TO THE DECLINE THAT I'VE NOTICED, HOPING THAT THE CITY WILL PAY ATTENTION TO THE CODE AND PROPERTY MAINTENANCE VIOLATIONS.

No, I won't move back. Why? Because I think the area is gone. I have no confidence in the city's enforcement division, and I regretfully think it's a simple matter of time before all of what we now recognize as really BAD in NSL extends all the way south to Holly Hills.

No, I am not a City employee. I own my own business.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

Scott Jones — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:25:28 -0000

This is wrong wrong wrong. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what should be going in. This is brain-dead crap.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

Eric — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:11:15 -0000

"This is a good example why some planning decisions shouldn't be left up to local residents."

Everyone thinks that THEY should be able to make public policy decisions regardless of public opinion. The problem is that those people don't always agree...

"Some that may drive now are going to be stuck in their homes when they can no longer drive."

When the time comes they can put a gate in the fence. Locked to non-residents, if necessary.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

Eric — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:07:42 -0000

If emergency access time was so important, sprawling cul-de-sacs would not have been built in the first place.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

Eric — Tue, 21 May 2013 10:06:01 -0000

West Philadelphia has "vintage" streetcars. They are regarded as no better than buses, and arguably worse, because are slower (they get stuck behind cars) and louder (their rumble makes the whole street shake, and they make horrible screeching noises when turning). When a bus line was replaced with a streetcar a few years ago, ridership did not rise. Why did Portland's streetcar succeed and Philadelphia's not? Perhaps because West Philadelphia is a slum while central Portland is populated by hipsters. Well, North St Louis is much more like West Philadelphia (it's worse actually) than it is like Portland.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

HeartSTL — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:51:17 -0000

Where are the stormwater management improvements??

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

JZ71 — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:45:47 -0000

And to the best of my knowledge, no zoning changes are being proposed here, either. Yes, the streetcar will be faster than walking, just like taking the bus is faster than walking. The "nonexistent sidewalk" is independent of the mode - a sidewalk can and should be built, no matter if, or what kind of, transit is present. And the issue of transferring doesn't go away - the only way the streetcar, just like a bus, offers a single seat trip is if both the origin and the destination are on or near that specific route. And the real downside, for riders who want to travel north of St. Louis Avenue, is that they will most likely be FORCED to transfer between the bus and the streetcar, instead of having a single-seat bus trip!

As to the type of vehicle, you're putting way too much stock on "vintage" versus "modern". Yes, a vintage vehicle may attract more tourists, but for the daily rider, the real core of your system, the specific vehicle type is secondary to safe, clean, comfortable and FREQUENT service, on whatever vehicle is reliably available. Yes, a streetcar offers a certain amount of permanence, but if it doesn't run frequently enough, late enough, early enough or where you want to go, it's not much better than the bus that you're (not?) riding now! From Metro's website, to get from N. Florissant @ St. Louis Ave to 14th @ Market, you already have the option of several bus routes - #74, 8 minutes, #30, 13 minutes, and #41, 16 minutes - the streetcar won't be quicker - it'll be operating in the same traffic envelope. The only way it will be "better" is IF it runs every "10-15 minutes, as promised, versus the 30 minute service Metro currently operates: http://www.downtownstl.org/doc...

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

JZ71 — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:32:06 -0000

"This is a good example why some planning decisions shouldn't be left up to local residents." Because the trained professionals, the "experts" are always right . . . .

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

Steve Patterson — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:20:57 -0000

Not surprised, they've lived with that awful shopping center for years now. They want nothing to do with it. I bet if they'd closed off the street temporarily six months ago they'd be singing a different tune today. They'll regret not having access.
This is a good example why some planning decisions shouldn't be left up to local residents. Some that may drive now are going to be stuck in their homes when they can no longer drive. Mobility requires multiple access points and modes.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

Steve Patterson — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:16:46 -0000

Two problems with your comparison to Tampa & Memphis: both are vintage vehicles geared toward tourists, not locals. Neither, to my knowledge included zoning changes.
The ride from N. Florissant @ St. Louis Ave into the downtown CBD, the Civic Center station (MetroLink, Amtrak, Greyhound) will be quick, much faster than walking. Also faster than waiting for a bus on a nonexistent sidewalk then transferring to the downtown trolley bus to finally reach a job, ball game, or dinner.

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

MacSTL — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:12:41 -0000

If there is only the access point from Watson... I think about the response time for Shrewsbury fire & police. If they can't go through the subdivision then they have to go through or around Mackenzie Point, right?

Re: Street Trees Must Be Planted Deep Enough the Root Ball Won’t Dry Out

JAE — Tue, 21 May 2013 08:59:41 -0000

It'd be better not to plant such a big tree at all if the hole can't be dug deeply enough for the root ball; though planting *too deep* is not good, either. And don't get me started about volcano-style mulching (2' up the trunk at St Mary's Hospital on Clayton Ave in Richmond Heights!) or trenching around trees to make a nice neat border with the grass (cutting many, many tree roots, Wash U!).

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

JZ71 — Tue, 21 May 2013 08:49:31 -0000

And if you can't drive, is there any requirement to maintain pedestrian access? Everyone will be treated equally, ALL will be denied convenient access.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

JZ71 — Tue, 21 May 2013 08:37:30 -0000

You're right, we'll see. In Portland, it's a success, in Tampa and Memphis, not so much. It's one thing to attract the occasional rider or the tourist, it's a whole 'nuther thing to attract the daily rider. You said it, "streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route". Frequent stops are good if you only want to go short distances. They're a real buzz kill, on both buses and streetcars, if you need to go longer distances, especially in non-dense regions like ours. (And with buses, unlike streetcars, adding express service is always a possibility, to serve those who need to go miles, not blocks.) Metrolink has been the relative "success" that it is here because it does offer a viable long-distance alternative; both current streetcar proposals are essentially just replacing portions of local bus routes - we'll see . . . .

Re: Proposed Rebuild of Kenrick Plaza in Shrewsbury, MO Ignores Walkability & ADA

nten — Tue, 21 May 2013 08:34:31 -0000

I agree with the comments, but it should be noted that the residents near Trinion Parkway were the ones that pushed strongly for the street to be closed off from the new development. They wanted it to be as cordoned off as possible.

Re: Potential Development Sites Along Proposed Streetcar Line, Part 3: 14th & Olive To North Florissant & St. Louis Ave.

Eric — Tue, 21 May 2013 04:43:44 -0000

Less taking care of kids means more taking care of parents a generation later. Society doesn't gain overall.